tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4989472048162022738.post8816492855382648733..comments2009-08-10T12:34:10.278-04:00Comments on I Think and I Judge: High Hopes, High Expectations, Little TimeSteven Rodgershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00627066790845474774noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4989472048162022738.post-21383003978505804142009-02-03T21:04:00.000-05:002009-02-03T21:04:00.000-05:00I agree that things change, they evolve over time....I agree that things change, they evolve over time. But I do think there is a difference between the evolution of a human creation like government and the Darwinian evolution of biologic processes. A species cannot 'choose' its path, humans, when it comes to government can and, even more important, they can be convinced to actively work against their own self-interest. It doesn't mean that the values and morals of society do not drift and move over time, they surely do. It seems that your position is that, no matter what happens, it is an improvement. Am I interpreting that correctly? <BR/><BR/>I would also have to disagree that what we are doing is working. I think it is fairly obvious that what we are doing is <I>not</I> working. Doing more of the same and expecting different results is one of the definitions of insanity. Changes are most definitely coming...I'm just not sure in which direction we are going to move.<BR/><BR/>I do think you are right. The understanding of natural rights that served as the foundation of our country is not the 'state of the art.' We (uh, they) have improved our understanding, we have developed a full philosohical system.<BR/><BR/>I'm going to have to think on your post a bit...there's something there about the evolution that seems familiar.<BR/><BR/>:)Steven Rodgershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00627066790845474774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4989472048162022738.post-22307377564806531682009-02-03T09:50:00.000-05:002009-02-03T09:50:00.000-05:00I'm not trying to convert this into an evolution d...I'm not trying to convert this into an evolution debate but evolution applies to everything, ever. To me there is no distinction between "Darwinian Evolution" and any other type, they are one in the same. Also it does not necessarily mean the government will become egalitarian, I would actually argue that if most people actually understood evolution (they don't), it would support capitalism and individualism, most definitely not the collective.<BR/><BR/>I'm not saying that the fathers ideas were bad and it wasn't a good foundation to build on. All I'm saying is we've moved past that because that is what is working best for us CURRENTLY. This will change in the future. Also it is based on natural rights as was known back then. I'm sure our perceptions on natural rights would differ today.<BR/><BR/>I think you're really arguing/blogging about the fact that the current state of our country isn't where it should be, according to your opinion. But in the evolutionary process it is where we are. You can try and change law and and change it to a closer ideal. But I would never want to go back, we've already done that, it doesn't work. You might argue we never were there. But we were the second we became a nation and the constituion and bill or rights were drafted. From then on we changed things for the better.<BR/><BR/>Think larger scope, not just government, but life. It is the natural law of things that rules, not a human conceived government.<BR/><BR/>Also I do agree with you that government is the great black hole.<BR/>It is the destroyer of wealth (not just monetary) while the individual is the creator.<BR/><BR/>Anyway I hope you're not stressing out too much at work and good luck with tax season.Jeff Borderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11281333827534106535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4989472048162022738.post-27136272177803310752009-02-03T07:25:00.000-05:002009-02-03T07:25:00.000-05:00First, I will definitely continue to work on my pr...First, I will definitely continue to work on my project. I came to the conclusion that 1) it is going to take a long time and people really need to hear these things now and 2) anyone that would take the time to read this blog is probably on the fringe of my 'target audience' for the project. Spending considerable time on the Internet, playing on blogs, and, specifically, reading blogs about politics and political theory is (painting with a broad brush here) probably a good indicator that one is above average in knowledge and intellectual capacity and capable of handling those books.<BR/><BR/>And, I will definitely keep blogging! :)<BR/><BR/>Second, I fully agree that societal norms and values evolve over time. But this is a very different kind of change than Darwinian evolution. (A topic for another day - applying Darwinian evolutionary principles is a dangerous game when it comes to governments because it almost always leads to eugenics or egalitarianism.) <BR/><BR/>Governments and societies do not exist on their own. They are a collection of individuals. There will never be a form of government or a society on this earth that is made of anything else. For brevity I am not going to give this a full treatment, but, in short, human beings are the only species on this planet that have a volitional consciousness. We are the only species that can assert, "I am." This has profound implications, for as soon as an entity becomes self-aware and volitionally conscious (I am skipping a bunch) it has crossed the fuzzy boundary and has started down the path towards 'natural rights.' <BR/><BR/>It is possible that, over the next several million years (assuming we don't kill each other) human evolution will produce a higher state of consciousness, an intellectual capacity beyond which we can imagine, but I find it highly unlikely that we will devolve from volitionally conscious, rational beings, to some sort of collective consciousness - similar to ants. I can forsee no path of evolution that leads us away from being individuals to becoming unthinking cogs as part of a greater community. While all of this makes for an interesting thought-game, it has no bearing on our current situation.<BR/><BR/>I am still developing this line of thought, but government is very much like a massive black hole - it pulls things into itself and the bigger it becomes, the stronger it pulls. Regardless of the form and structure of the government, it will expand and take powers from the individual citizens. It is the nature of government itself. The government created by our Founding Fathers, which was the world's first based on the premise of natural rights, was so structurally sound that it has continued to provide opportunity for success even though the gravity-pull of government began tearing at it almost from the moment it was adopted.<BR/> <BR/>Again, to try to keep the word count to a minimum, I am going to discuss just one of those Founders. Thomas Jefferson, perhaps <I>the</I> intellectual force of that generation, realized from the beginning that the idea they were trying to capture for a government was beyond what they were capable of achieving. He penned the most eloquent declaration of natural rights that has ever been written, even as slaves worked his fields. What I find completely fascinating, is that <I>he knew</I> he was a hypocrite! He fully realized they were not capable of achieving the ideals that provided the foundation of our government and that it would be up to future generations to make it right.<BR/><BR/>Having studied nearly every form of government that has ever existed, there has been an evolution, of sorts, in governments over time - the very slow, but steady, march towards the recognition of the individual as 'self-owner.' This was not the result of some biological change in humans over the centuries but the steady realization that "all men are created equal" and the king, the pope, the medicine man, the politician that tells you otherwise is a liar and powerless without your consent. <BR/><BR/>I am convinced that Jefferson, Madison, Washington, Adams, etc., (with the possible exception of Hamilton...I'm still working on him!) fully expected that realization to continue and for our government to change in recognition. Jefferson knew slavery would never last in a nation founded on natural rights. <BR/><BR/>The coming of the communist and socialist movements is another attempt by those that seek power to take it from the individual. I do not seek a return to the old, I seek to continue the march towards freedom. It is the communist/socialist call for self-sacrifice for the 'greater good' of the community that is a regression to the governments of old. Socialism and communism give it a new shape but, in the end, it has the same logical root - the rights of individuals are of no consequence. Communism and socialism simply replace the king and the despot with 'the state' as sovereign over all and replaces the 'court' with a political ruling class that exists above and separate from the masses.Steven Rodgershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00627066790845474774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4989472048162022738.post-73065031122329097702009-02-02T17:10:00.000-05:002009-02-02T17:10:00.000-05:00I think you're forgetting the fact that this is an...I think you're forgetting the fact that this is an evolving process. Our forefathers right through Obama have changed things because they weren't working. If we evolve into a socialist nation it's because our original democracy/republic wasn't working. If an organ stops serving a purpose the body eventually will stop producing it. You're saying you want the non-functioning organ back. But why would you want it knowing it doesn't work? It doesn't matter what the forefathers wanted over 200 yrs ago, it is an outdated ideal. Sure some of the principles are still good, but others need to be left to die.Jeff Borderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11281333827534106535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4989472048162022738.post-62301633476602619842009-02-02T09:35:00.000-05:002009-02-02T09:35:00.000-05:00I thought your previous post was a home run. This ...I thought your previous post was a home run. This one, then, is out of the park.<BR/><BR/>I actually have a draft of a blog post started on the importance of 1984, Animal Farm, and Brave New World--just haven't had the chance to finish it.<BR/><BR/>I hate that you don't have the time to push forward with your project, but I can definitely relate to the time issue. Hope that won't stop the blogs from blogging, though!Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17408987158289306466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4989472048162022738.post-92125156556277329662009-02-02T09:34:00.000-05:002009-02-02T09:34:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17408987158289306466noreply@blogger.com